6x12 cargo to toy hauler conversion.

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juddspaintballs
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Re: 6x12 cargo to toy hauler conversion.

Post by juddspaintballs » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:53 pm

smdub wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:36 am
juddspaintballs wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:51 am
The Mr. Buddy danger is oxygen consumption, not CO emissions. It has an auto shutoff for low oxygen, but keeping a window cracked is still a good idea.
If all goes well...
C3H8 (propane) + 5 O2 (oxygen) = 3 CO2 (carbon dioxide) + 4 H2O (water)
when you start to run short on O2...
C3H8 (propane) + 4 O2 (oxygen) = 1 CO2 (carbon dioxide) + 2 CO (carbon monoxide) + 4 H2O (water)
thus: oxygen consumption = CO emission

Relying on its low O2 sensor to prevent carbon monoxide poisoning is putting all your eggs in one basket.

This brings up another interesting science fact. For every # of propane burned, you release ~1.6# of water into the air. The Mr Buddy uses those 1# bottles. I've seen them go through one a night if not insulated well. Thats 3/4L of water in the air (excuse me for going over into metric to make calculations easier.) IIRC, a human sleeping exhales about 1/4L/night. So that like having 3 more people in the trailer w/ you. FWIW, my family of 3 sleeping in the van generates noticeable condensation inside overnight. Not dripping, but a noticeable 'film' on everything.


The heater consumes enough oxygen to trigger low oxygen long before it produces enough carbon monoxide to be unsafe. Even if the oxygen sensor didn't work and the heater kept running, the environment would have low enough oxygen to not only kill you but also stop combustion. Due to how efficient the catalytic heater is, the carbon monoxide emission is still so low it isn't a concern. A low oxygen environment is immediately deadly.


Like I said, it's a good idea to keep a window cracked. It's not because of CO emissions, it's because of oxygen consumption. When I run mine, I keep the roof vent open and a window cracked.


The real solution is a furnace that does all of the combustion outside of the living space or an electric heater. Both of those options are safer and don't put moisture in the sleeping quarters.




Brent, I installed strips of L-Track on the bed rails of my truck. It's as versatile as E-track, but much smaller. I forget what each connection point is rated for, but it well exceeds the load a dirt bike would put on it.
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Re: 6x12 cargo to toy hauler conversion.

Post by Bucho » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:57 pm

smdub wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:36 am
Thats 3/4L of water in the air (excuse me for going over into metric to make calculations easier.)
NEVER apologize for using the metric system.
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Re: 6x12 cargo to toy hauler conversion.

Post by smdub » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:33 pm

juddspaintballs wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:53 pm
The real solution is a furnace that does all of the combustion outside of the living space
Thats why I suggested one. They are down to the same cost as a Mr buddy heater. Uses much cheaper fuel to boot.
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Re: 6x12 cargo to toy hauler conversion.

Post by beejaytee » Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:33 am

smdub wrote:
juddspaintballs wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:53 pm
The real solution is a furnace that does all of the combustion outside of the living space
Thats why I suggested one. They are down to the same cost as a Mr buddy heater. Uses much cheaper fuel to boot.
I had never heard of diesel heaters but from a few videos on YouTube I think the noise would make them a no go for me. Most of the campgrounds I camp at with the family have generator limited times. They are pretty cool devices though.


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Re: 6x12 cargo to toy hauler conversion.

Post by smdub » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:09 pm

Dan doesn't have a muffler on his and its still pretty quiet. *NOTHING* like a generator (even a Honda 2200i at idle). Sorta sounds like a big propane torch. Maybe closest to one of those propane torpedo heaters? It was not completely silent but it quickly became background noise. The campfire was louder.

We have a SPL meter at work. I didn't order the optional exhaust muffler but mine is coming w/ an intake silencer. Will measure SPL once I install.
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6x12 cargo to toy hauler conversion.

Post by beejaytee » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:48 pm

smdub wrote:Dan doesn't have a muffler on his and its still pretty quiet. *NOTHING* like a generator (even a Honda 2200i at idle). Sorta sounds like a big propane torch. Maybe closest to one of those propane torpedo heaters? It was not completely silent but it quickly became background noise. The campfire was louder.

We have a SPL meter at work. I didn't order the optional exhaust muffler but mine is coming w/ an intake silencer. Will measure SPL once I install.
Image
Can you send a link for the one you got?


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Re: 6x12 cargo to toy hauler conversion.

Post by smdub » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:16 pm

Webasto Air Top 2000 STC (STC is the newest version. ST is older)

Can order from Russia for about 1/2 what you can find them for here. $600.01 shipped and it went out the next day. (I was leary but the "heaters4you" guy gets a lot of excellent feedback on the forums.) No warranty if you don't order from an authorized US dealer though. I figured for the price difference I can fix it myself if I have a problem. There is a $50 USB diagnostic cable and DVD on ebay that can do OBD2-like stuff if its ever needed to help repair.
https://heaters4you.com/for-areas-less- ... 00-st.html
Webasto and Espar/Eberspacher both make fairly identical diesel ones (similar $1200 list price). Those are what the chinese companies copied for $100. Unfortunately Webasto is the only company making gasoline ones so I had to pony up 6x as much to not have to hassle w/ a 2nd tank. If the van was diesel or if I was installing in a trailer I'd definitely get the diesel version. FWIW, Propex makes a propane powered one but you can't find it anywhere for cheap.

Since there was a diesel version of the ProMaster, there is a blank spot behind the gas door that was used for DEF. Some folks have figured out what the DEF cap and filler neck part numbers are. They used those plumbed into their own small diesel tank for the heater. I thought that was pretty clever. Its documented on the forums what the part #s are but I didn't want to mess w/ fabing a custom tank right now just to use diesel when a huge supply of gas is already RIGHT THERE.

If you want info on the chinese diesel copy, Dan is ClutchDumpinDan on ADVRider. He doesn't have a link to the exact heater he got. Just said he bought one off ebay. All the copies are likely made in the same place so seller probably doesn't matter. Here is his van build thread:
https://advrider.com/f/threads/adventur ... e.1273710/
Stephen (not Steve) - '08 Monster S2R1000 / '20 KTM 500 EXC / '17 150 XC-W / '19 Sherco 300FST / Sur-Ron LBX / '15 OSET 20.0R (kid's)
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Re: 6x12 cargo to toy hauler conversion.

Post by Laoch » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:22 am

FYI- the military has been using different versions of fuel heaters for many years. Very efficient and safe, but we always vented. Or lacked any sort of actual enclosed space :lol2:
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